2Bobs—with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

Given the data from recent research about Chief Marketing Officers, David has four things creative agencies should keep in mind during sales and work interactions with them. LINKS "Inside the Head of a CMO" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com The Boathouse Fifth Annual CEO Study Confessions of a CMO: A Field Guide to How CMOs Are Evolving to Thrive Under Corporate Pressure

Blair has been thinking about how, as AI continues to streamline more administrative tasks over time, we will be left to focus on the things we humans are good at – interacting with other humans. Because of this, the interesting people will win in selling their services and expertise. Links "The Interesting People Will Win" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Fertility Crash Will Make the World a Small Town" by Tyler Cowen for The Free Press Jesse Ratner's March 27 LinkedIn Post about AI

We all know how valuable external input from trusted advisors can be for our business. But what does that look like for independent agencies who don't have investors to answer to? LINKS "Do Independent Firms Need A Board?" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Categorizing AI-generated copy as "human vs AI" is not as binary as with AI-generated images or video. So Blair has developed an AI Contribution Scale to help us all be more transparent when using LLMs in the creation of written communication intended for prospects, clients, and peers. [This episode's notes are AI-0] ‍ ‍ Links AI Contribution Scale "The Coming Collapse of 'Thought Leadership'" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Curt Jaimungal's 5-minute YouTube video on why you shouldn't let AI write for you

In a recent article, David discloses the questions all creative agency principals need to answer whenever they are ready to find the right buyer and successfully navigate the merger and acquisition (M&A) process to complete the sale. LINKS "How Sellable Is Your Firm?" by David C. Baker for Punctuation.com

Blair and David are hearing all kinds of people talking about how their positioning needs adjustment because of AI. Blair does see an issue developing for many creative firms, but more with business strategy instead of positioning. Links Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind and The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing by Al Ries and Jack Trout Good Strategy / Bad Strategy by Richard Rumelt Playing to Win by Roger L. Martin The Lords of Strategy by Walter Kiechel, III

David recommends regular in-person company-wide gatherings for remote workers as an opportunity for creative agencies to help build their organization's culture in our post-pandemic economy where online video meetings continue to fill our calendars and working from home is the new norm. LINKS "Investing in Ee Retreats at Remote Firms" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair changes his mind on productized services. Again. And AI is the reason. LINKS "The New Age of Consulting" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

David shares a quick list of website elements he sees is missing from a lot of creative firms' websites which could help them attract more new business. Links "13 Signals Your Website Might Send" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair shares what stuck in his mind about marketing success from listening to a recent podcast interview with Rory Sutherland on Liam Curley's Undisputed Authority. Links "Embrace the Marketing Mess" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Rory Sutherland podcast interview on Liam Curley's Undisputed Authority

Which segments of our field will thrive in the near future and which ones will slowly lose relevance, and why? David wants creative entrepreneurs to continue being resilient and reinventing themselves every two years while keeping a watchful eye on constantly evolving industry practices and technologies (including AI). Links "Most At-Risk Shops" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair sees creative entrepreneurs opening themselves up to pricing resentment from their clients when the value of their contributions diminishes over time, especially when they've created significant economic value at the beginning of a long-term engagement. LINKS "Is Your Pricing Creating Resentment?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Prompted by a recent trip to Europe, David considers how the differences between worker protection laws in Europe compared to North America affect starting and running an agency in this fast-changing global economy. Links "Employment Law + Economic Flexibility" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com 2Bobs in Tuscany Join David, Blair, six other business owners and their spouses for four days and nights of creative business exploration in an intimate countryside villa designed for long meals, deep conversations, and unhurried thinking. Learn more and apply at 2Bobs.com/events

Blair identifies three recurring categories of lost sales in creative firms and offers solutions to each. Fixing two of these patterns can reap the dividends immediately, and adjusting your sales approach for all three will pay off for years. LINKS "Three Patterns of Lost Opportunities" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Brigadoon.live "Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode "Debriefing After a New Business Call" 2Bobs episode "Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

David sees a lot of creative agencies making bad assumptions about their client relationships by not making the distinction between the reasons why clients come to them in the first place, why they choose to continue working with them as time passes, and then why they ultimately move on. LINKS "Distinguishing Between Why Clients Come, Stay, and Leave" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "The Waterfall of Differentiation" 2Bobs episode

Blair is stunned that he still encounters so many advisory businesses like ad agencies, consulting firms, legal and accounting practices — large and small — that are still selling time. So he and David discuss what new revenue models should look like as we all adapt to how AI is changing our businesses. Links "Time's Up, Babycakes" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Time's Up!: The Subscription Business Model for Professional Firms by Paul Dunn and Ronald J. Baker The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry by John Warrillow The Forever Transaction by Robbie Kellman Baxter Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company's Future – and What to Do About It by Tien Tzuo and Gabe Weisert

Blair interviews David about a recent article he's been receiving a lot of feedback on, in which he lists all of the things he would try to incorporate into a brand new creative agency, based on what he's seen and learned from working with thousands of firms over the years. Links "If I Started A New Firm, Now" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair differentiates between decoy pricing and price anchoring, which are two different techniques that are often confused for each other, and can increase your average proposal value in multi-option pricing when used appropriately. Links "Decoy or Anchor?" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Perils of 'Good/Better/Best' Pricing" 2Bobs episode

Despite the fact that many entrepreneurs hate people telling them what to do, they end up running their own agencies using a "central planning" model. Instead, David encourages entrepreneurial leaders to set clear standards, give staff more freedom, and institute kind accountability, for them and ourselves. Links "Countering Your 'Central Planning' Tendencies" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he gives us methods to cope with our own natural emotional and physiological responses that can be triggered when unforeseen events unfold within sales conversations. LINKS "Can Improv and Cold Plunges Improve Your Sales?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Blair's interview on the Undisputed Authority podcast with Liam Curley What Doesn't Kill Us by Scott Carney

Blair interviews David about a recent article in which he argues that the very traits that make entrepreneurs successful also make it hard for them to give up being their own boss and join someone else's company. LINKS "What Makes Entrepreneurs Unemployable" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he explores how our businesses are not simple machines that can be tuned (or killed) with specific wrenches, but they are complex adaptive organisms that we need to understand differently. LINKS "Your Business Is Not a Machine" by Blair Enns for winwitoutpitching.com "Innofficiency in Your Agency" 2Bobs episode "Grow or Die?" 2Bobs episode

David sees too many marketing agencies trying to attract new business by staking claims of specialness on things for which nobody is claiming the opposite, instead of building their positioning on uniquely defined expertise.

Are prospects not responding to your follow-up after you submit a proposal? Blair goes through what might be causing their lack of response and then provides three tools to address the ghosting problem. Links "Ghosted. Now What?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Power of a Metaphor" 2Bobs episode Blair's annual 100 Day Sprint post on LinkedIn

One characteristic of our industry is disappearing moats. After a brief overview of the fourteen moats we've lost from 1965 to today, we'll look at what turf we really have left to defend and what the future will look like if we get this right. It'll be very different, and you'd better get ahead of it.

What do we do in those situations where we have to pitch? Blair simplifies some important principles from his books into a sequence of four precepts we can follow when the sales process doesn't progress like we'd hoped. Links "The Only New Business Indicator That Matters" 2Bobs episode "Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode "Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode

If/when you sell your firm, it'll likely be the largest transaction of your life, and so it makes sense to understand it! In this episode David gives a crash course in everything earnouts. LINKS "Understanding Earnouts" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair recognizes growth opportunities in every area of life and business, yet sees many people chasing metrics while unknowingly resisting genuine progress for various reasons. LINKS "Chief Growth Officer" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

If you ever need to go to war over not being paid, David has some bombs you can lob over your enemy's front lines.

Blair interviews David on why dropping a client is sometimes necessary and how to best approach letting them go.

Where did the new client come from? Who gets credit? Should the new business person be involved in growing existing accounts? How should they, and/or the account people be compensated? Blair addresses all of these sales attribution questions.

You don't need a degree or license or permission to write a book. David and Blair share the steps they took and what they have learned from the writing process.

If you think you might have a book in you but aren't sure writing and publishing your own book as an entrepreneur is worth the effort, this episode is for you.

David has eight questions he wants agency principals to ask themselves before hiring him to help add a new partner.

In this follow-up to their July 2020 discussion, "Four Regrets You're About to Have," David interrogates Blair on the extent to which he is a valuable and accurate predictor of what is happening in the marketplace.

Blair interviews David on his recent article in which he was very open and honest about his struggles with depression and anxiety. LINKS "I Struggle With Mental Health. Maybe You Do Too." mentally-healthy.org Mentally Healthy 2020 Results

For the last time—ever—David and Blair discuss client-side marketing departments, their struggle to be entrepreneurial and what we can learn from them.

Blair combines a few of the deeper topics he and David have already covered to provide a larger view of the overall pricing journey he recommends creative firms take.

In-house creative departments aren't going anywhere, so David wants agencies to be mindful of the unique value they bring to the projects for which their clients still need them.

David asks Blair some awkward questions to get inside his head about his successful book, The Win Without Pitching Manifesto.

Most of us haven't sold one firm that we've owned, and those principals who have formerly sold their firm aren't always...ahem...telling the truth.

In a nod to the Walt Whitman line, Blair believes successful sales people - as well as agency principals - often need to present themselves as different personalities in different situations. And David believes sales trainers are actually therapists.

As we've seen independent creative marketing and digital firms experience rapid growth over this past year, David offers five factors that principals should consider in order to avoid growing for the wrong reasons and/or mismanaging that growth.

Having a problem with either hearing or saying "no" can lead to problems for your business. Blair has 12 statements about the word "no" that can help.

When people from other industries learn about what goes on inside your firm, are they awe-struck in a good or bad way? Blair and David come up with a list of things that are unique to the creative firm biz and how they've seen outsiders react to them.

Blair shares an overview of all the communication tools creative firms should be using throughout the sales process.

David and Blair discuss what the four performance bands are, eleven critical factors that keep firms stuck at the lower performance bands, and what firms can do to move into a higher band.

David is in a cynical mood and takes turns with Blair sharing clichés they hear their clients use to describe their business.

Blair stops to think about what "agency" actually means, and if it's the right term to describe firms in the creative services space.

David lists eight truths about money that he's identified in his efforts to help entrepreneurs make better business decisions.